Part 2 of our conversation with Emma Chasen on the Science of Cannabis. Listen to Part 1 first if you haven’t yet (Episode E050). In Part 2 we discuss product selection for different ailments, dosing, what questions to ask your budtender and answer some questions submitted by listeners.
Visit this page for more Science of Cannabis Episodes www.periodiceffects.com/101
Episode Transcription:
Emma Chasen, Guest: Yeah, I would really encourage them to make that choice based off of their lifestyle, first and foremost. So what's going to make sense for them to kind of most easily integrate it into their lifestyle. I know some people, who smoking is just completely off the table, and so we take smoking off the table and we look at topicals or vaping if that is something that's still on the table for them, or edibles, and then we really talk about dosing. For the novices that are kind of like, “I'm open to anything!”, then typically I encourage them to smoke, to try that out, just because with edibles you can really like get yourself into quite a long experience, especially if you don't know your dose, if you're really not prepared, it can become very intense very quickly. And so looking to flower that has that whole, that is that whole plant medicine, has that full spectrum and really giving them the dosing tools to make sure that they don't have a bad experience. But then some other people need something that, again, maybe doesn't require them to inhale anything hot into their lungs but they also want something that's immediate and very discreet, and so then we could look at something maybe like a lozenge which they could put under their tongue or a tincture that they could put into smoothie or something like that so they could easily dose throughout the day. And anything that's going to be more sublingual, meaning that it's kind of bypassing your digestive system, going directly into the bloodstream through the mouth under the tongue, will achieve a more immediate effect, quicker activation time than something like an edible, which could take very long. But if there's some if there's somebody who's using it for sleep, then maybe an edible makes most sense because it could help them sleep through the night. So there's, there are a lot of different options for a lot of different people and really it's dependent on, okay what makes most sense for your lifestyle and also what kind of experience do you want to achieve, and that will really determine what consumption method works for you.
Wayne: Yeah, yeah that's a good one to talk to budtenders about, is that activation time and then length of, you know, how long is that experience gonna last. Because yeah, edible is a lot different than smoking (*Laughter* Yeah) but you know if you're if you're brand new to cannabis even you know something that simple like you don't you might not know that right you might think the edible works immediately and lasts for an hour because that's how you know two hours like flower but yeah budtenders will definitely, all should probably have a really good knowledge base on product, different products and those things, that they will understand and can give you good information.
Emma: I would certainly hope so! Like that is like, budtender 101, must, must know that - and in my experience they have, which is good.
Wayne: Great, great. So, people with different ailments, you know, we talked about pain or anxiety or sleep - is there any information we could give them on where to start with products for different ailments that might be kind of specific that we know work really well for these certain things?
Emma: Mmm yeah, I think that in general a good option would be to start with a very low dose of an equal concentration of both THC and CBD, or like a 2:1 CBD to THC ratio, so 5 milligrams of CBD two and a half milligrams of THC I think that that's a really kind of good safe starting place for people to figure out, “Oh no okay, I do have a sensitivity to THC and I really didn't like it” So maybe we move more into the CBD realm or “I want more THC”, whatever it may be. In general, anything or any kind of disorder like the Dravet’s syndrome, like seizure disorders, muscle spasm disorders, a higher concentration of CBD seems to be more effective. Also when looking to manage anxiety and depression, higher concentrations of CBD seem to be more effective. When looking to manage pain, that equal concentration of THC to CBD seems to be the most effective there. When looking to help offset the different symptoms that may come from chemotherapy or cancer treatment, again, equal concentrations of CBD to THC seem to help. For, for like really like trying to manage cancer without chemotherapy, a higher dose of THC may be the way to go. If you are trying to achieve a really sedative response, a higher THC level may be the way to go. For a novice, so for somebody who has never consumed, even if they may be coming in for a really serious medical condition, I don't recommend to start with a high dose of THC, just because of those negative experiences that can occur, it can really scare people from not wanting to go there, and so it's always safer to start with low dose, close to 1:1 ratio of CBD to THC, maybe even a little bit more CBD than THC. And maybe even also having some kind of product on hand that is CBD dominant so that just in case you are sensitive to THC, you can add more CBD as you go.
Wayne: Yeah, and then on the so for around terpenes like we discussed too, so those were our cannabinoids to start for different ailments. On the terpene side is it you know there's a lot of if you Google cannabis terpenes there's a lot of stuff out there about, this terpene helps with these certain things and this one with those, is that more kind of, I don’t know if trial and error is the right word because, well I guess there could be error like Terpinolene, you didn't, that one really doesn't help you out but it's kind of, you know, getting your cannabinoid ratios down and then those, supplementing those terpenes in and figuring out which, just which one works for you by trying a couple different ones for what you’re trying to accomplish?
Emma: Definitely, yeah, and there are certain like good general rules or categories for the different terpenes, like Linalool for example, which is found in lavender, abundantly found in cannabis, that acts as a sedative, can also be really helpful for depression, so if you're looking for something maybe a more calming experience looking for that terpene may be helpful. Pinene, terpene found in pine needles, actually its greatest therapeutic value is its ability to help offset those negative side effects from THC, it gives a really kind of clarity of mind experience, it helps to open up the lungs get more oxygen to the brain, also helps to reduce the memory impairment effect that is coming from, that may come from THC. So that could be a good one if you're looking to maybe incorporate more THC into your lifestyle but offset those negative side effects. And then there are of course tons more in between like Limonene, the citrus terpene, which actually interacts with our serotonin and dopamine so it could really help boost that anxiolytic effect, or anti-anxiety effect. There's beta-Caryophyllene or Caryophyllene, I always say that one wrong, that can actually engage the Endocannabinoid Receptor System, so it can effectively engage with our CB2 receptors causing many medicinal, kind of, pathways to ensue, and so that could also be a good one if you're looking for pain management muscle relaxation. There are a lot of ways to go, definitely, and there are actually some pretty good resources out there online where you can find good terpene information. SC labs is a good one that I typically go to; if you are interested in getting into the more like nitty-gritty research, Dr. Ethan Russo has a lot of research on terpenes out there which could be helpful as well.
Wayne: Okay, yeah. I know there's quite a few of them so yeah figuring out which ones to kind of put together or try is, you know, there's a lot for I think a new consumer to kind of figure out and figure out which one they want to try, some good stuff out there, that’s good to know. (Definitely) and I'd like to cover dosing recommendations and how to consume. So and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're gonna if we're gonna try to make this as simple as possible for a new consumer, there's really oral or inhalation as two of the main methods there's also transdermal there's another option, topical rub. So for oral, that's always expressed in milligrams for THC (Yes) and your inhalation is percentage of THC. (Yes) Are those the two kind of measuring metrics that are used for THC and cannabinoids for consumers to look for?
Emma: Yes, definitely.
Wayne: And what would be a dosing recommendation if they were looking at milligrams or the percentage of THC if they were inhalation, and we kind of hit on it a little bit, but we want to kind of let them know where they could start?
Emma: Yeah, definitely. So I am a big supporter of micro-dosing. I think that micro-dosing is the way to go, especially if you are a novice and you don't have much experience with cannabis. It will just allow you to really like tune into what the experience is or even could be, if you do need a higher dose, without giving you that kind of overwhelming negative experience. And so a good place to start for THC would be about 2.5 milligrams of THC. I do recommend to take it in the evening just in case you experience any adverse events. People are very sensitive, or can be very sensitive, to THC and so they can experience psychoactivity at one milligram you know, but two and a half milligrams is a good safe place to start for most, most people don't experience psychoactivity until about five to ten milligrams, so two and a half milligrams good place to start. Take it in the evening, if you don't feel anything, the next night or whatever night, you can increase by one and a half milligrams and so then you go up to four milligrams of THC, see how it makes you feel. And with ingestion it is important to note that you should wait at least four hours before consuming more, really when you're starting to figure out what your dose actually is, don't consume anymore for that night, wait until the next evening or even the evening after that to really make sure that that you are understanding your dose. Especially with oral ingestion of cannabis, it's really dependent on liver processing and metabolic rate, and so it could take you 24 hours to process it. You know we, we’re not quite there yet with the kind of hard science of, “Yes you take this milligram amount and every single person will have this effect within this time frame” and we probably will never get there because of the variability of this medicinal plant. And so wait a day and increase your dose. If you do experience psychoactivity at two and a half milligrams and it is something that you are uncomfortable with, it is not pleasant at all, then reduce your dose by one and a half milligrams. So start with one milligram the next night, see how it makes you feel and note also symptom relief, note like cognitive experience, mood, as well as symptom relief and that will help you in this kind of dosing structure figure out, okay at seven and a half milligrams I got the relief that I wanted, I maybe am a little high but I don't have the adverse events this is something that I can do. Or if, let's say, you get to a place where it's just like, this isn't working I'm not achieving symptom relief, then that's where we look to incorporate maybe some other cannabinoids like CBD into the mix. With oral ingestion of CBD like we had touched on, you can start at a way higher dosage. So you can start at 15 to 20 milligrams as a micro dose, see how it makes you feel - again I would recommend to consume in the evening, and that's just so if you consume in the morning then your whole day could be shot. You know, the evening is a much safer kind of place if you do experience adverse events, you could just sleep it off. But yeah, with CBD it's a higher starting dose there, and then you can work up in kind of five milligram increments. So if you don't experience the symptom relief at 20, go up to 25 the next night, so on so forth. And if you experience maybe something that's uncomfortable and you're also achieving symptom relief, you can decrease your dose the next night.
Wayne: Yeah, is there anything that could have prepared or ready in case they do over-consume, or too, that experience is too high or anxiety or those things start happening, that kind of can help balance that experience and level it out for them?
Emma: Definitely, yeah. Some CBD on hand is always a good way to go, that EpiPen of cannabis kind of effect that happens. You can also have like black peppercorns people like to chew on, we're not sure if that's a placebo effect, but beta-Caryophyllene is found abundantly in black peppercorn and so we know that beta-Caryophyllene has an anxiolytic, anti-anxiety, property associated with it. And so maybe that's what's happening there, it's worked for a lot of people even if it's placebo. Also having some lemon balm on hand, something citrus maybe so that you get a little added Limonene, some Linalool, AKA lavender, to help you kind of calm down. There are certain things, certain tools that you can have on hand to help. Drinking a lot of water is important, putting on a funny TV show, surrounding yourself with good people, good friends, safe space, all very important things. An intentional cannabis experience, especially when you're first starting out, is really important.
Wayne: Yeah, that setting of being around friends or family, people you're comfortable with, because when you first start to experience THC and if you kind of go on a little bit higher end or you're feeling those psychoactive effects it can feel kind of awkward, especially if you're around strangers or in a foreign environment, but if you're at home with people you really like, that's normally when you just start laughing ridiculously and you can't figure out why or something's goofy but…
Emma: Exactly, yeah, situational awareness is huge, huge - how much water have I had today, have I had a fight with my partner, was I stressed out at work, how much fat have I eaten - because cannabinoids and terpenes are fat soluble, so especially if you're ingesting orally, that will make a difference. Who am I with, where am I at - all of these things will contribute to the overall experience and it is important I think to note beforehand, again if you keep a journal just make quick notes of those things, of course in addition to what product you're actually consuming, how you're consuming the different ratios of cannabinoids, all those types of things will help you to gather the most data for yourself for what works for you.
Wayne: Yeah, I think what's great now is, as you're starting off as a new consumer, first time user, that kind of incremental process to figure out what works, and then you kind of get in your rhythm and you identify a product and you like it. Now with all the lab testing and the regulations and how, you know, aboveboard these companies are in the products that are out there, they're so consistent now that if you find something that works you can be really confident going back to that same product is gonna do the same thing time and time again for you, where in the past I mean if you had a brownie, you know, if something's not potency tested that's just a huge red flag situation there but we're going even deeper than that and talking about terpenes and full-spectrum and these other things where there's this consistency and reliability to the experience now, which is just amazing.
Emma: Yeah exactly, and I mean that is what the consumer market will start to demand, I mean, they have they already have, they already are and so it is our job in this industry to give them that degree of predictability and consistency that we can, with always the caveat of this is an experiment for you, I can help guide you to the experience that I think that you're looking for based on this chemotypic data or the cannabinoid and terpene concentrations, as well as the consumption method with all these guidelines for dosing, but ultimately the experience that that you are going to have is going to be a unique one, really like tracking that for yourself will help you to find what works best for you.
Wayne: Yeah, I thought this next section could be fun too. So initially I had you know what questions should a consumer ask a budtender when going into a store have different product categories, but I thought what we could do is we could go through each product category and if you just want to give me like three questions either you would ask a budtender, or a new consumer should ask about those product categories so that they're kind of armed with some information going in to like know what questions to ask make sure they're getting the right products and a good deal. But we'll just go through product categories and tell me a few questions you'd ask the budtender?
Emma: Yeah, I love that, it's like lightning round!
Wayne: Yeah so if you're going in to purchase flower, bud, what would you ask the budtender?
Emma: Mmm, number one, was this grown organically, and how do you make sure of that? If so, is there any type of certification on the company? What, what are the cannabinoid and terpene potencies? And have you tried it, and how does it make you feel?
Wayne: That's a good one, like that - Vape cartridges?
Emma: Mmm, How was it made? So was it a CO2 process, BHO process, how is it extracted? Are there any additives that you know of like propylene glycol or additional terpenes? And what is the coil made out of - is it made out of silica, fiberglass, cotton, ceramics? And I'm gonna say fourth question, but tell me about the battery that I have to use - do I have to press it five times, do I have to press it three times, are there no buttons so I just auto draw?
Wayne: Okay, yeah. On the CO2 and BHO, I want to go into a few of those a little deeper - is there specific like extracts or concentrates you like or prefer that a consumer could look for, for certain reasons?
Emma: Yeah I definitely, so I'll preface this by saying I'm not a concentrate girl, way more of an edibles person, that's like actually my favorite way to consume, but I do use some vape cartridges and typically I stay away from BHO, I just don't like the idea of residual butane in there even if the company is telling me that there's not, I'm just skeptical. CO2 or live resin, which is a BHO process I'll kind of sacrifice that if I really love the company. CO2 is typically what I look for, but I really make sure that there's no propylene glycol in there, that it's not cut with anything to decrease its viscosity because that's typically why, and I also like my CO2 oil without any added terpenes, specifically any added like synthetic or artificial flavors. I'm not a fan of like the bubblegum vape pen that tastes like bubblegum kind of thing. So yeah, I like a really clean CO2 oil that has been processed in such a way that they do preserve as many of those natural terpenes as possible.
Wayne: Okay, what would you ask if purchasing an edible?
Emma: Mmm, so what concentrate was this made with? Was it at CO2, BHO rosin or… so, how is it dosed or where is the dosing information on the package? And how would you recommend to consume it? Would you recommend to consume it with some additional fat, what is the fat content of that edible?
Wayne: What about a tincture?
Emma: Tincture again, ask what the solvent is - is it alcohol, glycerin, oil? Where's the dosing information - how do I know what half a dropper is, versus an eighth of a dropper, versus a full dropper? And is this something that I can put into my juices, smoothies or is it something that you would recommend to put under the tongue and hold it, hold under the tongue, and if so for how long?
Wayne: Okay. Is there a certain solvent that you prefer in tinctures, or is more ideal?
Emma: I am NOT a fan of glycerin, that's more of a personal preference though - I just really don't like the taste. I like organic sugar cane alcohol. We've talked a lot about how cannabinoids and terpenes are fat soluble, but really the term for it is they're nonpolar, which means that they cannot dissolve into water. They can dissolve into any nonpolar solvent, which is oil or fat or alcohol. And alcohol, I think, actually does the best job at pulling out the cannabinoids and terpenes. So I like a good alcohol tincture, I like the way it burns, it makes me feel like it's working, but also oil, I'm also a fan of an oil tincture, yeah.
Wayne: Sure yeah, and you need so little with the tincture most of the time they're pretty potent, just a few drops.
Emma: Exactly, and I will kind of add as like a, anything that I'm going to be ingesting specifically or even vaping, like where are they getting their source material from, where does this company source their flower from, and do you know the farms growing practices? Because when we do concentrate down plant material, we're concentrating down whatever inputs were put into that, and that includes pesticides, fungicides, any synthetic nutrients and that's really important to me again to have a really clean product.
Wayne: What about for topicals? Are you a topical user often?
Emma: Topicals… I do use topicals sometimes. I like, can't consume actually during the day, I just usually have a lot of work to do and cannabis unfortunately does not help me accomplish work, I'm not that person, but I do have like general muscle pain throughout the day, I have sciatica, so that's where like a topical comes in handy. So I'll ask about what the base of it is, if it is a butter, what kind of oil it is, and if they have any information about how it will, like how it will be delivered through my skin, if it was cut with anything that did, that will make the skin more porous that will increase the ability for those cannabinoids or terpenes to enter into the skin. I'll also ask how much I should use, how much should I apply, and how often would I need to reapply?
Wayne: Okay. And on topicals as far as dosage, is there any concern or issue there with, you can't, topicals won't get you high is that correct? It won’t get through the blood-brain barrier by rubbing on the skin?
Emma: Yes, exactly yeah. Our skin is actually really, really thick if we look at a cross-section of it and so the likelihood of it making through, making it through that layer into the bloodstream and getting up to your blood-brain barrier, it's unlikely. I mean with cannabis, I always give the caveat - anything could happen! So you never know and so again, try out a little bit, usually I recommend on like the inside of the wrist or the ankle where the skin is really thin so that you can just test, mostly to see if you have an allergic reaction to any of the things that are included in the topical because sometimes companies will have like proprietary essential oil blends in there, but typically no, you should not get high from it and you should be able to reapply it as much as possible. I've heard stories of people who use topicals who are like no I swear I got high. It's like okay, did you like eat food with your hands still having the topical on it? Did you like happen to smoke weed at one point during the day? Like, let's think about this here, and usually most people are like, “Oh yeah, you're right, I did smoke that joint, or I did eat that edible, or I did eat food with topical still on my hands”, and so yeah. Typically, it shouldn't, but it may.
Wayne: I has another question with topicals, I things to be good for listeners. I was actually really suspicious of them when, you know, the legalized market came out and because of that, that you can't get high from them, it doesn't go to the blood-brain barrier, so my thought was like well, what are they even doing? To me they're just sitting on top of your skin, that's great but how are they working? But you've actually told me they have, you do have receptors that react with topicals in your skin to that that makes it, actually topicals are effective and do actually work.
Emma: Yes, yes we do have Endocannabinoid receptors in our skin. We also have family of receptors called TRPV1 receptors that cannabinoids can and do engage with that help to reduce inflammation and decrease sensitivity to pain.
Wayne: Okay, interesting. Well that was the end of kind of questions I had planned and then I've got a series of questions from, that listener submitted if you want to walk through those and (yeah) wrap up (let's do it) all right - what is the best way to ingest cannabis with the least amount of side effects? So in any form…
Emma: Hmm, so to consume cannabis? (Yeah) Um, I would say it depends on what the side effects are, what you're trying to avoid. If it is that anxiety, paranoia, memory impairment, I would say look more to the actual compounds. CBD and Pinene, that terpene that I mentioned, are actually good at helping to reduce the negative side effects that come from THC, and so incorporating a little bit more CBD maybe into whatever you're consuming and making sure that it does have high Pinene levels could help. I would not suggest eating an edible, just because it can last and be in your system for a very long time, some people could still be high like 48 hours after they've consumed - again that's atypical, but it does happen. I'd say vaping is probably the way to go, it just allows you to first of all like measure your dose better. Where smoking it's harder to micro-dose, you could get through half a joint and then just like 20 minutes later be like, oh my god I'm really high, where vaping every like two to five second draw is typically just about 2 to 5 milligrams of THC if you have a THC dominant concentrate in there, and so it's easier to kind of modulate the dose.
Wayne: Okay - what's a standard edible, like, length of experience would you say?
Emma: Standard, I'd say is about 4 to 7 hours (4 to 7 hours?) yeah.
Wayne: Ok. What benefits does eating the raw plant have?
Emma: Mmm, so this has actually come up a lot recently just in questions that I've been getting, and I think that there is this trend towards consuming the raw cannabinoid. So when we smoke or vapor eat an edible, the cannabinoids that we are consuming have been activated, they've been changed from their acidic form into their quote-unquote “active form”, however a lot of people juice cannabis leaves in order to get those acidic compounds, and while we don't have enough research to draw conclusive evidence or to claim kind of conclusive experience or properties of these acidic cannabinoids, there is research to suggest that consuming raw cannabis and consuming those acidic cannabinoids can have potent anti-inflammatory efficacy in particular, and that those acidic cannabinoids, especially if consumed through the digestive system, are actually very bioavailable. So they’re, they are more bioavailable than the cannabinoids in their active form which is interesting. Shouldn't really get you high, however I just consumed some CBD-A, so the acidic form of CBD-A coming, or packaged in, a full spectrum hemp product and I definitely felt some type of way. (Really?) I was definitely like relaxed, my mood was elevated - no it was not the THC like high thank goodness, I was happy for that, but I definitely felt a change in my cognition for sure.
Wayne: Okay, so we were talking about full spectrum earlier; I've always understood hemp to really be you know grow their CBD in there but it's mostly only CBD that the hemp plant grows, but you just said full-spectrum hemp - are there now hemp strains or plants that are actually growing a more full spectrum profile and not just like isolated CBD?
Emma: Mmm, so full spectrum just means that it's the full range or close to the full range of secondary compounds that that plant has produced and so while it's CBD dominant, it doesn't mean that it's only producing CBD as its only secondary compound. Hemp, its legal status is defined by having less than .03 percent THC. So it could still have .02 percent THC, which if it's included in full spectrum hemp product, there could be a little bit of THC in there. And the hemp plant also produces terpenes and flavonoids and other compounds as well; again, not as much as the cannabis plant, as the drug cultivar cannabis, but it's - you can still have a full spectrum hemp product.
Wayne: Okay. Is that something a consumer should look out for, especially if ordering from an online company that they might say, this is full-spectrum extract, which it very may well be, but if their input material, the plant they start with is low quality, it could still be full spectrum but you're not getting all these different terpenes or secondary compounds? So really lab results I guess, if you can get those…
Emma: Definitely, lab results yes, making sure that you really do some research as to what company you’re sourcing from - that is the biggest, biggest piece of advice that I give to people who are looking to incorporate CBD into their lifestyle, but don't have access to legal cannabis, so they're looking to hemp. Research the company, reach out to them, ask them if they have lab testing done, ask them about their practices, ask them where they source from. If they don't give you any information, that's a good kind of red flag to maybe move on to another company.
Wayne: Certainly I've seen, well we kind of hit on this, I've seen people juice plants before, but can you get high from that?
Emma: You could, you could. Again atypical, I feel like I've said this word like a million times in this episode. (Laughter) Again, you shouldn't, because it's an acidic form of the cannabinoid which means that it can't effectively engage with the endocannabinoid receptors, so it can't really trigger that psychoactive experience, but - if you're using something like a Vitamix per se, there may be high enough heat in there that some of that, some of those acidic compounds have now turned into activated forms of THC, we're not, we're not still like really a hundred percent clear on what’s happening through the digestive system, and so I would say that but you can, and like I had mentioned with my own personal anecdote even from CBD, I definitely felt a change in my cognition. I don't know if I would call it high in, in the way that we think about a THC high, but there was definitely a change in my mood there.
Wayne: We covered the ratio 1 to 1 THC:CBD, does your body build up a tolerance to CBD?
Emma: Mmm so that's a good question. Your body can build up a tolerance to almost anything really. When we talk about tolerance with cannabis, we talk more about the way that THC tolerance happens, and so we can definitely build up a tolerance to THC, most people know that who are avid consumers. The cool thing is that it only takes 48 hours to reset your tolerance from a tolerance break. CBD, we don't build up a tolerance to CBD in that same way. So CBD especially has the ability to really interact and support our endogenous cannabinoids, so our cannabinoids that our body makes itself, by helping to reduce this compound that floats around in the body called FAAH, it's a fatty acid that is made when we are stressed. And when we are stressed, no matter what type of stress it is, the body makes that compound and then stores it in storage vesicles for later use and when our body makes an endogenous cannabinoid called Anandamide, this FAAH that's just floating around can immediately denature Anandamide, so it's one of the compounds that can actually destroy Anandamide before it even has an ability to engage with our system. What CBD can do is it can destroy FAAH, and so thereby it supports Anandamide’s ability to engage with our Endocannabinoid Receptor System, creating a kind of opportunity for us to not need as, to supplement with as many phyto-cannabinoids, which is interesting. So we can't really, in that kind of sense CBD actually helps to support the functioning of our own endogenous system, and so there's not this kind of like super tolerance build-up there. I will say that, especially in the way that it combines with THC, that if we're building up our THC tolerance, it'll probably take way more CBD to then help balance that out if that makes sense, but we don't build tolerance to CBD in the same way that we do to THC.
Wayne: Okay, makes sense. Will I fail a drug test consuming CBD?
Emma: I'm going to abstain from answering that, because you very well may. And there was actually that very unfortunate story that came out several months ago about the bus driver from, it was I think maybe from Beaverton, somewhere in, right outside of Portland - there was a bus driver who was taking, or he claims he was only consuming hemp CBD, and he failed his drug test unfortunately. And so you very well may. If you are somebody who has to have regular drug testing for whatever reason, I would stay away from cannabis unfortunately, just because there are those kind of accounts and reports of people even with hemp derived CBD that has less than that .03 percent THC still failing drug tests by like quite a large margin, yeah.
Wayne: My understanding of that was if, if you truly had CBD 100 percent isolated you consume that, you would pass a drug test with only CBD if that's all there was, but so often the case is there is a very small amount of THC that is in hemp, that is in there and that comes along with that just hemp derived CBD that you're getting, so that's what's causing you to fail a drug test, but in theory if it was 100% pure CBD, you would be able to pass I believe - is that accurate?
Emma: It is, because drug tests for, or to detect cannabis use are only testing for THC, (okay that’s what they’re looking for) they're not testing for CBD, at least to my knowledge now. However I think that anybody in the cannabis business, anybody as an industry professional, you should never really assure people that they'll pass the drug test (yeah, that’s risky) if they use any type of hemp or cannabis product, just because it's a huge liability and you never know what could happen. We're just not there yet with that kind of hard science, and quite frankly I don't know if we ever will get there.
Wayne:Yeah, hopefully we'll get somewhere, where we stop drug testing for THC, haha…
Emma: Exactly! Exactly, that would be the true goal, when we can stop drug testing…
Wayne:Seems a lot easier, yeah - Can dogs have CBD, and is it a different kind if so?
Emma: Pets can definitely have CBD. It's not a different kind, so that's actually a good point to make, in that CBD that comes from hemp and CBD that comes from cannabis and CBD that comes from other sources, it's the same exact molecular structure all across the board. It's just the different supporting compounds that are within those different matrixes that will influence the way that CBD can interact with your physiology, but CBD for pets is the same CBD that that you can take as a human. And there are many dog treats that I'm seeing now even in supermarkets, here in Oregon at least, where there is a good amount of CBD. I know that my very good friends, they have cats and they give their cats CBD tincture and the cats love it; they are just like, they chill, they eat, they sleep and they're typically very anxious cats, so it's nice to see them kind of calm down. (Mellow a little) Yeah!
Wayne: Yeah, what about THC for dogs or cats?
Emma: No, not great. I know people who have had pets with, who were going through like cancer or again more of those severe medical conditions, that they did choose to dose them with a little bit of THC just to try to help ease the pain more and maybe even hopefully help to, like manage the disease, give them a longer better quality of life; it's just hard when we talk about giving an animal THC because they can't communicate their experiences to us. And so if they are having a really paranoid time inside their head, I bet that would just be so uncomfortable for them and could definitely increase neurotic behavior. If your goal is to decrease neurotic behavior, I would suggest staying away from it, or if you are like really hell-bent on trying it for a pet that does have maybe cancer or something like that, do have very, very low dose.
Wayne: Low amount. So on oral consumption of CBD in relation to child development, dosage effects on mental and physical health develop development and CBD. I've seen more stories around children, epilepsy, it's working there - is there any concerns or side effects or that would you know around CBD with children?
Emma: Hmm, so I haven't seen any research that's looked at the long-term use of CBD and its effects on the brain, the heart, the lungs - that's typically what researchers look to in terms of like long-term adverse events. There was that research paper that actually we discussed in the last episode that we did together that came out in January, looking at different dosing methods and also different adverse events that have been associated with cannabis use, and there was a study out of Canada that was done that showed no long-term adverse events associated with cannabis use specifically looking at brain, heart, and lung function, which was awesome. However, there has been research to suggest that especially in young developing brains, THC specifically can impair memory and definitely lead to memory loss; it's kind of the opposite in the older populations, which is interesting in that THC and cannabis in general can help to reverse that memory loss, which is cool. But that I would say is the major adverse event that has been associated with cannabis use in young people. That being said, I don't think that that is correlated to CBD, I think that's specific to THC and that may just be because we don't have that long-term research yet, because the kind of start of children consuming CBD oil to help with seizure disorders has just started happening over the last like decade. And so I'm sure more research will come out to that and hopefully we will see that there are no adverse events associated with long-term use, but specifically in that case I'd say well, if you have a child who was having 40 seizures a day or even a hundred seizures a day, and now they're taking this CBD-dominant oil and they're having maybe 1 to 5 seizures a day, I think that that benefit outweighs any potential memory impairment, but that's also just my opinion.
Wayne: Sure. What's the difference between traditional full-spectrum RSO, and the new activated BHO or CO2 oil that is being marketed as “full extract cannabis oil”, which is then clear, or when it is clear?
Emma: Mmm, so that's a different, that's a difference in solvent. So, RSO or FECO, full extract cannabis oil, it is made with, hopefully made with, organic food grade alcohol. And like I had mentioned, that is really the best solvent to pull out those cannabinoids and terpenes. It’s also, if it is true FECO, true full extract, it has been done at a very low temp so that you are preserving as many compounds as possible, and it's been extracted for a very long time. So usually you still have a lot of plant material in there, which is a good clue that your extract has a truly full spectrum, if you have little particulates, little plant material, because in order to really extract out your plant waxes, your plant phenols, you need high temp typically. I'm sure there's some proprietary process out there that will contradict me, but from what I've seen and from what I know, really to get that clear oil, that relates to the second part of the question, you do need high temp. And so, for the CO2 and the BHO that's been, that's being marketed as full extract, they may be doing like a low temp process first, pulling out some terpenes, pulling out some of those more volatile compounds and then running the remaining oil through a higher temp, higher pressure extraction and then kind of like putting those two pieces together. They also could just be running a very low and slow process, which could create a full spectrum oil. I have consumed and I know companies that do this with CO2, and their oil is very clear - it is darker in color, it's more amber, but it is, it's doesn't have particulates which could mean that they just like, did a very rigorous winterization process where they do wash it with ethanol and store it in a really cool place to try to pull out as many plant waxes as possible. So it is absolutely possible to have a full spectrum CO2 oil; that I've consumed, that I know. It still may not have the same efficacy as a full spectrum or a full extract cannabis oil that has been extracted with the food grade organic alcohol, just because that alcohol is such a powerful solvent and pulling everything out. With BHO, you typically need high temp, high pressure. I have not personally seen a BHO extract that has been done low temp for a very long time that also has pulled out any of the residual butane. So that would be my one concern, and definitely something that I would ask a company who is making BHO where they did claim full extract, was okay well how are you making sure that one, you're preserving as many compounds as possible, what is your extraction length, what's your temperature look like, and how are you ensuring that you're pulling out as much butane in the process?
Wayne: Yeah, yeah it's interesting, the full spectrum term. Because in any process there's gonna be some efficiency losses, so probably not a hundred percent conversion from the flower, maybe even in the most ideal perfect world (Right) something is, even when you harvest the flower terpenes are, you know, aromatic and you're losing some of them, but what is the most effective at consuming most of the, getting most of the terpenes and cannabinoids into that product. (Mm-hmm, definitely) I got one, I can sum that later looks good - well that was all questions I had. Do you want to let know, people know where they can find you if they want to learn more, see what you're doing?
Emma: Yeah definitely. So I do have a website you could find me at, emmachasen.com; there's a contact form there, so please feel free to get in touch with any questions that you may have. I'm also on pretty much all the socials - I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, and LinkedIn, if anybody's looking for some business development connection. So yeah please, please feel free to reach out through any of the channels.
Wayne: Awesome, thank you so much Emma. It was really great.
Emma: Oh yeah I'm so glad to be back!
Wayne: Yeah, hopefully I think we provided a nice foundation for a new consumer and (I think so) arm them with quite a bit of information and knowledge and ready to go out into the world…
Emma: Yes! Go out into the cannabis world, and feel confident to be able to, to try this out. I think cannabis can be for everybody, but it's about knowing the right questions to ask. So this has been great, thank you.
Wayne: Yep, thanks Emma.